tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7603499.post5147968307062296183..comments2023-11-30T03:44:34.585-05:00Comments on Opinions Nobody Asked For: Does Brit Hume Deserve a Rummy?Jeffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11683622475941901572noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7603499.post-12116044059624261852010-01-13T10:40:33.690-05:002010-01-13T10:40:33.690-05:00Sorry that I'm WAY late in commenting about th...Sorry that I'm WAY late in commenting about this. I'm glad to see that Jeff, while obviously not converting to Christianity, has come to agree with me in our old college-era debate about witnessing/sharing the Good News/etc. (That it's an act of love, not disrespect.)<br /><br />I guess I'd have to actually read Hume's statement before I form an opinion on it.<br /><br />And, of course, being a Protestant, I agree with John more than Matt on what's required for salvation.<br /><br />That being said....historically, Christianity has always had SOMETHING in it that pissed off the prevailing culture. When missionaries were trying to preach to the "barbarian" tribes that eventually destroyed the Roman Empire, the tribes were really offended by all this "love your enemy stuff." Their culture valued strength, valor in battle, and physical courage above all else. Loving one's enemies was, to them, a sign of sniveling weakness. Of course, eventually those tribes were "Christianized"....but, it seems, usually adapted Christianity to fit their pre-existing norms rather than the other way around.<br /><br />These days - in a culture that values individualism and its cousin, tolerance, above all else....especially in a postmodern culture that believes everybody should find their own truth and is skeptical of over-arching truth claims - the part of Christianity that pisses people off is the claim that salvation requires Jesus Christ. And, if Jeff's characterization of Hume's comments and the subsequent controversy is correct (and I have no reason not to believe my old college roomate), it appears that's what happened here.<br /><br />Tim Keller, in his book The Reason for God, addresses the objection to the exclusivity of Christianity. Hopefully I'll have time to rehash his ideas at some point, but I've spent enough time avoiding work today.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15344649128973165027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7603499.post-17138704494313334212010-01-08T22:38:59.968-05:002010-01-08T22:38:59.968-05:00John -
Well, I think a lot of our disagreement mi...John -<br /><br />Well, I think a lot of our disagreement might come down to our different theology. You put a simple on/off test on salvation - either you've accepted Jesus as your personal lord and savior or you haven't, and the result turns on that alone - and I accept a more complex picture: essentially, that faith is a necessary step that may or may not be sufficient.<br /><br />I maintain that the relationship between an individual and God is something I cannot pass judgment on, since I'm not a party to it. Even in the rubric of your theology it's a question of whether God has been accepted as a "personal" Lord and Savior. How do you know the status of that relationship? You aren't a party to it.<br /><br />I'm plenty comfortable maintaining my position that we can't draw conclusions about other people's relationships with God. Not only do I think we're incapable of doing so in a meaningful way, I just don't see it as something important to my theology.Matthew B. Novakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00441950586412209361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7603499.post-25105001056235695652010-01-08T16:09:13.382-05:002010-01-08T16:09:13.382-05:00Mr Novak, you are correct in that I took a dig at ...Mr Novak, you are correct in that I took a dig at you. But my dig was based, at least partially, on a misunderstanding of your position regarding witnessing. Insofar as your previous statement of "other ways" to salvation, I remain digging. And, in regard to your "drawing conclusions" statement, I am conditionally against your statement there, as well. My first link I provided in this thread covers that to an extent.<br /><br />And you and others can call me John. My moniker here ties into the way I log my comments (not anon) on this site, not in how I present myself on the various blogsites.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7603499.post-783682188215032802010-01-08T15:57:42.782-05:002010-01-08T15:57:42.782-05:00I think TBD took a dig at me, appropriating my lan...I think TBD took a dig at me, appropriating my language as he did... so I'm gonna defend myself.<br /><br />He said he has contempt for Christians who withhold the Good News from others. I can certainly understand that. But there's a difference between "sharing the Good News" and "taking a position on another individual's salvation". It was only the later that I find unpalatable. <br /><br />I don't feel I'm qualified to assess whether or not someone else is living as God would have them live, and, more importantly, God hasn't given me any authority over whether or not other individuals receive salvation. Salvation is such a personal thing and a product of a relationship that I'm not a party to. I'm called to try to get those two sides talking, but I don't get to hear what they talk about. And so I have no basis for commenting on the conversation.<br /><br />Does that make sense? I'm not against spreading the Good News - exactly the opposite - I'm just against drawing conclusions about other people's relationships with God.Matthew B. Novakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00441950586412209361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7603499.post-13885854827742670882010-01-08T13:58:00.329-05:002010-01-08T13:58:00.329-05:00You caused me to write an article on my blogsite, ...You caused me to write an article on my blogsite, but since it is rather longish, I'm only <a href="http://truthbeforedishonor.wordpress.com/2010/01/08/how-dare-you-proselytize/" rel="nofollow">linking</a> to it here. I think it covers the "proselytize" question and the "love" question.<br /><br />Feel free to quote the article in full or in part here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7603499.post-6815597356886308532010-01-08T12:23:44.165-05:002010-01-08T12:23:44.165-05:00You're right, Jeff, it is a New Testament comm...You're right, Jeff, it is a New Testament commandment, if you will. I wanted to respond quickly while you're still "live" here. Now, let me try to do some proper research to give the proof.<br /><br />Be back soon, I hope. In the meantime, you might want to study my link. ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7603499.post-47044540097645043152010-01-08T12:05:53.027-05:002010-01-08T12:05:53.027-05:00Back when I was anti-proselytizing, Ben (a regular...Back when I was anti-proselytizing, Ben (a regular here) used similar imagery to explain his position, though I think he used a burning building. I resisted the analogy at first, but over time it made sense. If you view proselytizing not as an intentional act of disrespect but as an act of love, it's a lot easier to deal with.<br /><br />Anyway, proselytizing/witnessing/whatever you want to call it is part of the Christian mandate in the Bible, right? "Go and make disciples" and so forth?Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11683622475941901572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7603499.post-32099821439698745702010-01-08T11:42:49.035-05:002010-01-08T11:42:49.035-05:00Thanks for the linkage, Jeff. I wrote a long-wind...Thanks for the linkage, Jeff. I wrote a long-winded <a href="http://truthbeforedishonor.wordpress.com/2009/08/31/a-nobody-layman-sermonizes/" rel="nofollow">treatise</a> (if it qualifies for such a high-falutin word) on Christianity and salvation and suchlike that may be of interest here.<br /><br />I like word-pictures. You are standing on the roadway on a dark and foggy night and you just saw the bridge over a chasm had collapsed. Oncoming traffic on that high-speed road cannot see the (lack of) bridge. What do you do? Try to stop the traffic and redirect it away from certain doom? Or choose to be liked (or unnoticed) by the drivers who will soon meet their demise?<br /><br />Brit Hume's statement could be deemed unwise if you're looking at it from a "glory from man" perspective, but if you're looking at a "saving a man's soul" perspective, silence is unwise and possibly even sinful. How much hate must a person have in order to know the way out of certain doom but not declare that way out? It is for this reason I have an amount of contempt for professing Christians who withhold the good news from those around them.<br /><br />If that driver wants to protect himself from falling over the chasm, he'll do it himself. That's between him and his car.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7603499.post-35601063224661784952010-01-07T16:29:03.787-05:002010-01-07T16:29:03.787-05:00Hey, I'm a practicing Christian.
But I don...Hey, <i>I'm</i> a practicing Christian.<br /><br />But I don't really have too much in the way of views on this. I wasn't aware of the comment having been made until I read this post. Plus, as a Christian, I find talking about the salvation of other specific individuals somewhat unpalatable. That's between them and God.<br /><br />Talking in a general sense, however, is more doable. So, re: forgiveness. As a Catholic, I'd first cite to the sacrament of Reconciliation, which, you know, only we use. I'd say that's the fullest expression of God's forgiveness. But there are other ways of getting forgiven too, so it can certainly happen.<br /><br />One of the biggies is baptism, where the old sins are washed away. The Catholic Church actually teaches the necessity of baptism for salvation, but also points out that you can be "baptized" without actually undergoing the sacrament. Basically, if you live your life in a good, God-fearing way it's a type of constructive baptism.<br /><br />Which I guess is all a really long way of saying "as a Christian I hold that we've got the best route to salvation. Classifying it as just 1 of many doesn't do it justice, since it's the best and surest way to experience/serve God. But I certainly won't rule out other paths entirely, since, you know, I don't exactly have a say in determining God's will. And I'd even go so far as to say that, knowing God like I do, I'd guess that he'd probably be cool with saving non-Christians, so long as they at least meet some sort of basic qualifications." <br /><br />Which I guess is a really long way of saying itself...<br /><br />How's that sound?<br /><br />Oh, and I expect comments or your own posts on music 2009 from y'all.Matthew B. Novakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00441950586412209361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7603499.post-21521202224200337732010-01-07T10:29:10.166-05:002010-01-07T10:29:10.166-05:00I question whether the "Christianity is the o...I question whether the "Christianity is the <i>only</i> path to salvation" is actually a "mainstream" view. Most Christians that I know (and bear in mind, I'm talking more my parents' generation and less ours) see it as <i>one</i> path only, certainly <i>their</i> path, but not the <i>only</i> path. I've in fact had discussions with a few who have argued that a belief in multiple paths was not inconsistent with their own faith. (Myself, I was never able to reconcile this belief with the teachings of the Bible. In fact, I prefer to think of Heaven as much more inclusive, and Hell as not temporary rather than eternal.) Like yourself, I'd like a practicing Christian's view.<br /><br />But anyway, overall I like the objective nature of this post. Too often we fail to put ourselves in the other person's shoes (if you'll pardon the overused cliché) and resort to visceral reactions and mockery. I know I was guilty of this when I first saw Hume's spiel, but this post helped provide perspective. Also, seeing you defend (in a manner) Jerry Falwell and one of his more loathed statements is kinda amusing.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06383789548221247888noreply@blogger.com